Front brake usage

You put the gear from a larger bike on your smaller bike (in front I assume) and it's LESS than what the smaller bike had? I'm confused, but regardless; 60+% of your stopping power is in the grip of and weight upon the front tire; if your brakes are weaker up front, you're looking for a rear wheel slide in a panic stop. That 60% goes to 75% in a hurry, allowing the rear to break loose; something you NEVER want to have happen. This is also why the method of using fronts as your primary is advocated; you get more diligent with the rear. The average rider will immediately lock the rear in a panic, causing a slide - even happened to me.

quadancer wrote:You put the gear from a larger bike on your smaller bike (in front I assume) and it's LESS than what the smaller bike had? I'm confused, but regardless; 60+% of your stopping power is in the grip of and weight upon the front tire; if your brakes are weaker up front, you're looking for a rear wheel slide in a panic stop. That 60% goes to 75% in a hurry, allowing the rear to break loose; something you NEVER want to have happen. This is also why the method of using fronts as your primary is advocated; you get more diligent with the rear. The average rider will immediately lock the rear in a panic, causing a slide - even happened to me.

Thanks for the info and explanation... That helps.

I've tested straight line braking on my 2005 V2k Limited (before I put the car tire on), and here is what I found after several runs trying each method of braking.

From a steady 40mph, I can stop with rear brake only at a minimum of 95 feet.

Using front brake only, the shortest distance I could stop is 65 feet.

Using both front and rear brakes, (smooth progressive squeeze on the front, light to lighter pressure on the rear) I could get it down to 50 feet.

I had my son video each attempt because I was planning on repeating the testing with the car tire, and just haven't gotten back around to finish the experiment. I'm looking forward to seeing if the car tire really reduces stopping distance or not


For those that think only using the rear brake for quick stops on slippery surfaces like sand, gravel, etc. is the best choice, that is incorrect. Even under less-than-ideal traction situations, you still have shorter stopping distances by using both brakes - you just have to be cautious with the front to avoid front wheel lock-up, and if using the brakes for the shortest stop possible, you had better make sure your bike is straight upright. I've slid the front wheel for 20 feet or more during panic stop practices when the bike is straight up - if the front locks OR rear wheel locks - just release and reapply.

...Orygunner...

No one said you could stop quicker using only rear brake,what I said was it was safer than having the front slide or lock up and flip you.Everyone already knows that using both brakes in an emergency is what is required in most instances.I was talking about normal riding.

@Larry Simpson: Oh, OK. Sorry I missed that.

However, as we teach in Basic Rider Training, it's still important to use both brakes as much as possible, because of the muscle memory it builds.

Exceptions may be easy braking in slippery situations you mention, or rear brake only combined with the friction zone of the clutch in low-speed maneuvering.

...Orygunner...

No problem,The reason I started this thread is that years ago when I started riding we were taught different and it has worked well for me for about 50 years.I always ride defensive and can usually see a problem before it becomes a problem allow for it and smile.But in the event an emergency arises by all means I will be on the front brake too unless I have to leave the road,then I won't touch it. I don't understand the problem of being slow when you need to use the front seems like second nature to me. What did you find on the rear brake when you switched to the car tire?

Larry Simpson wrote: What did you find on the rear brake when you switched to the car tire?

I honestly don't feel that much difference.. I need to do my formal testing just to verify, but I don't think it improved my rear-only stopping distance by much, as I've seen some people claim.

Maybe I'll finally get around to it this week, since the kids are out of school I've finally got some time to kick back in the afternoons.

...Orygunner...

That suprises me.I could tell a big difference on mine.GYTT 205-60-16 What tire are you running? What psi.? I also used to do the burnouts like in your video,but haven't since I went DS.Afraid I will break something

Larry Simpson wrote:That suprises me.I could tell a big difference on mine.GYTT 205-60-16 What tire are you running? What psi.? I also used to do the burnouts like in your video,but haven't since I went DS.Afraid I will break something

That burnout was my MC tire after it was pretty flat in the middle.. I was surprised at how much was left on the tire when the center was worn flat 3" wide and the grooves were worn out of the center.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRg3rrS84mY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS0vh_4yTsE

It's a General Altimax HP 205/60r16, I keep it around 35 PSI. As I said, it doesn't seem any different but I haven't really tested it to see.

I don't care to try a burnout with the car tire either... I had a hard enough time keeping the front from sliding as it was, and I'd like a realistic measure of how many miles I get out of this tire. maybe when it's ready to be changed I'll give it a shot.

...Orygunner...

I will watch.but I ain't going for that one.

Rear brake going from the Pirelli Night Dragon to the Comtrac was at LEAST 100% at first. The tire may be near half it's life now at near 9k, and some of the braking traction is less than at first, but still better then the bike tire - stopped hard in the rain yesterday with rear only and the ol' lady on the back. She was really impressed and so was I.

jaarch wrote:

Fly wrote:The best reason to always use both front brakes is because in an emergency you don't have time to consider which brakes to use and must rely on 'muscle memory' or 'learned reaction''. If you normally just use only the front or rear brakes, that is what you will do in a true emergency, then take vital seconds to consider using the other brake. Perhaps this will allow you to stop in time, but there are many cases where this will at least cause you much damage and perhaps kill you.

Of course in the parking lot, or on loose rocks you only want to use the rear brakes, but that's a controlled situation, and you have time to consider. Since the weight shift of the bike from most weight on the rear wheel to having 70 to 80% of the weight on the front wheel during an emergency stop, if you don't use the front wheel for most of the braking, you are sitting yourself up for a bad accident. Just consider the race circuit and watch the Super-Bike racers, they use both brakes, as they must slow down for these turns in a minimum distance. It's doubtful that 1% of the bikers on this forum can handle a bike as well as they do, why not listen to them and the Safety Foundation.

Exactly!

I have been riding since 1963. Learned a little in that time and You are dead on in this post! I will not argue with anyone on what to do with their scoot
But I will ride the river with anyone that uses the front brake like it should be used. Good job sir

Larry Simpson wrote: I choose to base my conclusions on my own experience,ability and common sense. so Quad,let the debate begin.

\
curious what YOUR experience is the shuns you away from using the front brake ?

did you grab it when you were tryin to eat a ham sandwich and go flyin over the handlebar, or did you squeeze too hard and tuck your gonads into the tank

We were taught to not use front brake years ago when I started riding actually started with the english bicycles .I have had the front try to slide out on me a few times when I did deem the use necessary.Riding without using the front brake has worked well for me for over 50 years don't see the need to change.To me it is just another hazzard that I choose to avoid.

Larry, that may have been what you were taught but it is still wrong. A whole lot of those lock the treat and lay it down episodes can be prevented by using the brakes as they should be used.
I have no doubt that I will ever be able to convince you how wrong you are. I do know though that you will never convince me that you are right. Wish you the best.

See you out there
Smokey

Larry,explain to me why I have ridden for over 50 years on many different bikes sometimes a lot harder than I should have been and only been down and out once.Meanwhile I have seen and heard of many flipping end over end instead of just laying it down.I will use a front brake spairingly when I feel the need but common sense tells me I cannot control a front wheel when it slides out or sets in soft surface. however I can and have been able to control a rear tire slide to some extent.Maby the key is I ride very defensively and always try to leave myself plenty of breathing room when a situation arises. Also I have been riding this way for so long it is just second nature to me.When riding in a group I will not ride side by side or in tight formation I will opt for the rear and give myself the whole road for unexpected occurances and also because I am carrying tools,fuses and air comp. ect.So you are right you will never convence me that it is wrong to depend on my rear brake 90% of the time.

jaarch wrote:

Fly wrote:The best reason to always use both front brakes is because in an emergency you don't have time to consider which brakes to use and must rely on 'muscle memory' or 'learned reaction''. If you normally just use only the front or rear brakes, that is what you will do in a true emergency, then take vital seconds to consider using the other brake. Perhaps this will allow you to stop in time, but there are many cases where this will at least cause you much damage and perhaps kill you.

Of course in the parking lot, or on loose rocks you only want to use the rear brakes, but that's a controlled situation, and you have time to consider. Since the weight shift of the bike from most weight on the rear wheel to having 70 to 80% of the weight on the front wheel during an emergency stop, if you don't use the front wheel for most of the braking, you are sitting yourself up for a bad accident. Just consider the race circuit and watch the Super-Bike racers, they use both brakes, as they must slow down for these turns in a minimum distance. It's doubtful that 1% of the bikers on this forum can handle a bike as well as they do, why not listen to them and the Safety Foundation.

Exactly!

Well put. Agree totally.

Larry Simpson wrote:I also gear down and will use front brake as last resort but 98% of the time won't touch front brake except for park brake at red light ect.

Gearing down is nothing more than a delayed way of hitting the rear brake. You're increasing wear and tear on the engine to save brake pads. I'll change brake pads any day rather than rebuilding an engine.

With respect to using only your rear brakes 98% of the time: I find that I can ride much faster and respond much more quickly to unexpected cager challenges by using both the front and the rear brake together. People who use only their rear brake are, without knowing it, slowing down their riding speed; and either increasing their distances between themselves and cagers, or they're placing their safety in the hands of unknown cagers surrounding them in traffic.

I'm gonna say again - rear slides are predominant. Because...the rear unloads weight onto the front during braking, which is why you'll see dual discs on the front and a single on the rear, I've seen bikes with disc on front and drum behind. No way should a rear brake be more powerful than the front; that's like just asking for a slideout.
Back in my chopper days, I found out early on that no front brake was a very bad idea, no matter HOW "cool" it looked.

Again,that is how we were taught to ride years ago, has worked good for me for over 50 years has never caused me to slide out as a rear tire slide is controlable and a front tire slide in my opinion is not,gearing down has never caused me to rebuild an engine or clutch or transmission,that just saves wear and tear in the mountains or lets you enjoy the pipes when the need arises and as far as slowing down just ask anyone that has ridden with me about that.I will use the front brake also when a situation arises that I deem it necessary.You havent come up with anything that would cause me to change my riding style and I am sure you are not going to change yours.When I started this thread it was because I had seen so many goldwings with the entagrated brake system flip end over end after leaving the road and it only made sense to me that the front tire was setting in the dirt when they were braking causing them to flip instead of just sliding out.My bike before the nomad was a goldwing that after experiencing a few front tire slides at intersections and in curves with gravel on them I unhooked the front brake line and just used the lever when necessary.Just food for thought.

Odd that TODAY this thread would be resurrected! (*get to that in a minnit)
The reason discs are better than drums isn't because they stop better; a drum will lock up a wheel just as well, if it's shoes are large enough. The
main reason is heat dissipation - the discs run much cooler. The second reason is wet braking- wet drums act like...wet drums.
Just today I went with the wife to a rider seminar/cone practice, with the Faith Riders, a deputy motor officer and some odd folks from other rides.
I got to play in the cones with my CT as usual, but with my new 2" overstock front tubes - and noticed no difference at all, still making 17' circles
with ease!
So...all happy and heading home on a beautiful day (that started in rain), we followed an SUV thru a light, perhaps 3 car lengths behind and suddenly,
this FREAKIN' MORON cuts across the SUV's path to get into a business driveway AND STOPS IN THE ROAD, causing him (the SUV) to lock up all four,
- right in front of me and the lady.
I'm totally thinking about only ONE thing..."don't lean, don't lean, go straight go straight!" ...and stopping 1 foot behind the SUV's bumper, I was immediately
aware of several things:
1.) I'm SOOOOOO glad I've been practicing 3-4 fingers on the front lever
2.) I'm SOOOOOO glad I've been practicing APPLYING FRONT BRAKE FIRST!!!
3.) 3 cars behind me were now to the left and right of me, avoiding the whole mess and not smashing us into the SUV. Had I leaned, we'd have been on
our sides in a split second, enjoying one heckova road rash along with the bike. And one of THEM could have run OVER us.
4.) Had I had a MT on the back, I would have hit the back of the SUV - no doubt whatsoever about that. Both tires made some small squealing noises as I
managed not to lock either up. I recall hearing both at once.
As God is my witness (and He is), this is the truth.

Well done Quad. It happens quick don't it.

See you out there
Smokey

Glad your angel was riding with you Quad! Good Job!