Shimming stock carb needle
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Shimming stock carb needle
Biddy Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:27 am
barttoday
Young, Dumb, full of.....
Bike: 2004 VTX 1300C
Miles: 4000
Trader Rating: (0)
My Photo Gallery
It is common while working with the PAIR removal to "miss" something in the process and have an open vacuum line or "other" air leak. Many who have done both of these mods simultaneously have ended up fiddling with their carb for days/weeks on end chasing their tails looking for what went wrong with the carb tuning while all the time it was an error in the PAIR system removal. There have been some war stories spread about how difficult it is to tune a carburetor.. bull hocky! The most difficult part of tuning a carb on a VTX 1300 is removing the fuel tank for the first time and figuring out how to dissconnect the electrical connectors under the tank.
So, what comes first eh? REMOVE THE FUEL TANK. Follow the directions in the service manual.. everyone should have a service manual.. the money you save in THIS carb tuning process alone will pay for a service manual. The money you save doing your first valve adjust using the service manual would buy a nice set of tools that can be used in OTHER money savings projects... EVERYONE needs a service manual..
Next REMOVE the air filter and backing plate. I won't "get into" hooking and unhooking the hoses attached behind the backing plate, they are pretty straight forward and will become part of your "learning process" of the easiest ways to rapidly navigate through assembly/disassembly.
NOW the carburetor is EXPOSED.
Sitting on top of the carb you will see the vacuum chamber cover.
Remove the cover and then remove the compression spring under the cover.
Now gently grab the diaphram/piston rubber and pull it out.. the Vacuum piston (slider piston is what most old timers call it) is attached to the diaphram and the whole package will come out with it.
YOU ARE ALMOST DONE AND READY TO PUT THINGS BACK TOGETHER.. see, I told you.. removing the tank was the most difficult part of the process... unscrewing the 4 vacuum chamber cover screws was no big deal, right?
Look at the slider piston and you will see a tappered "needle" sticking out the bottom of it, that is the jet needle.
Look inside the slider piston and you will see the Jet needle holder.
The jet needle holder is next to be removed.. you will see in the center of the holder it will accept a Phillips head screwdriver which can be used to "unscrew" the cam locks, BUT the "best" method is to use a small socket and fit over the head of the "cap" and unscrew the cap... I'm thinking it's an 8mm.. difficult to recall those things sometimes at my age, but you'll discover the correct size. Twist the cap counter clockwise just as tho you were unscrewing any "standard" nut or bolt and you will feel a "pop" after making a very small motion.. that was the cams unlocking.. the cap can now be removed, it is "unlocked".
Under the needle holder cap there is a small spring "screwed" onto a plastic "tit" protruding from the bottom of the cap... well actually the "tit" has no threads, so the spring is not "screwed" on, but consider it so... instead of "pulling" the spring off and distorting it's shape, give a "light force" pull on the spring while unscrewing it from the "tit" and set the spring aside. The "tit" does not protrude very far, but it must be "trimmed" for "heavy breather" mods, so go ahead and trim it now even if you are doing a "light breather" tune... Take some TOENAIL clippers (those are the large ones, not to be confused with fingernail clippers) and "snip" the "tit" in half.. that should be enough for heightened needle raising and still provides enough remaining "tit" for the small spring to be screwed back onto... set the needle holder cap aside.
Remove the needle from the slider piston.. place your shims into the needle "point" and make sure they slide all the way to the needle head with the washer/shim hole big enough so free movement along the needle is achieved. Hold the slider piston in your left hand and turn it at an upwards angle and insert the needle INTO the slider piston hole, passing through the CENTER hole in the slider piston (this process will not work for "left handers", you will have to purchase a Yamaha carburetor). Face the slider piston DOWN and the needle should be hanging from the bottom of the slider piston and sitting "on" the shims/washers INSIDE the piston.
Take the SMALL spring that was unscrewed from the underside of the needle holder cap and screw it back onto the shortened "tit" under the needle holder. Put the needle holder cap into the slider piston with the small needle spring tensioner sitting on top of the needle head. (If the 8mm socket is placed onto the top of the needle holder cap "nut" the tension is enough to hold the cap.. the needle cap holder can be easily inserted into the slider piston with this method utilizing a socket extender). Twist the needle holder cap clockwise (even the left handers) as tho "tightening" and you will feel the cams lock into place... that's it, the needle holder is locked. If enough of the "tit" was trimed, this should be a relatively easy "twist"... Hold the slider piston with one hand and "wiggle" the needle with the fingers on the other hand... the needle should "wiggle" (movement), this assures true alignment into the emulsion tube . If the needle is "stiff" and won't "wiggle", then the "tit" was not trimed enough ... go back and trim more from the tit until free needle movement is achieved. (If you are using a DJ needle, the tit must also be trimmed for the same reasons)
Replace the diaphram spring onto the needle holder cap and replace the vacuum chamber cover.. NOTE: There is an irregular "shape" in the cap that must be matched to it's mating surface when remounting, this is what the manual calls the "tab and air passages"... "Snug" the vacuum cap screws and continue reassembly.
Under the carb is the A/F screw (see manual), the stock screw head requires a "D" type tool for adjustment. If you slightly dent the end of an empty .22 shell casing, this will fit into the hole and can be used to unscrew the "D" screw. Take the "D" screw completely OUT. On the top of the "D" screw head will be a spring followed by a washer and then an "O" ring.. save these parts and reasemble in the same order when putting the A/F screw back in.
While the A/F screw is OUT, use a hacksaw blade or some simular device to cut a thin channel into the head of the top of the "D" screw.. this slot or channel should be wide enough for a flathead screwdriver blade to fit into for A/F adjustment. Once the slot has be cut into the screw/needle head and the screwdriver blade fits, replace the spring/washer and "O" ring and replace the A/F needle into the needle jet hole and screw IN. Take your screw driver and screw in the needle until it LIGHTLY seats or stops turning ... don't get anal about this and over tighten or damage could be caused to the needle/jet mating surfaces . If you error on "seating", error on the LOOSE side, final tuning will not be affected by a minute discrepancy of "seating" at this stage of tuning. Turn the A/F screw OUT 2 1/2 turns with the screwdriver.
Reassemble the airbox and fuel tank.
Before firing the engine, look at the CHOKE KNOB and push it in all the way... any flexing of the carb while working on it will flex the choke cable and pull the choke out... it will not run properly with the choke pulled out AT ALL and final tuning cannot be achieved.
Shim heights:
"Open" style airbox and aftermarket "free flow" pipes... usually about 2or 3 shims.
Airbox flowing more air than stock design, but not in the "heavy breathing" class and/or pipes either free flow or somewhat restricted... usually about 1or 2 shims
Stock airbox (K&N filter in stock box is still "stock") and after market pipes... usually 0 or 1 shims
Stock airbox and stock pipes... tune the A/F screw for maximum performance...
A/F settings:
While determining proper main jet circuit settings the A/F screw should be set at 2 1/2 turns and NO adjustments made to it until the high speed circuit has been properly tuned -- Turning the screw IN leans the mixture... turning the screw OUT richens the mixture -- Fine tuning the A/F screw should be done in no more than 1/8 turn increments... very fine tuning will be even less... it is highly recommended to "slot" the "D" screw and tune the A/F screw with a screw driver... a 90 degree drive is useful if you have one... improvise.
SLIDER PISTON SPRING:
That's what I call the big spring directly under the vacuum cap and sitting on the needle holder cap. -- Most tuners that have springs of the type found in the VTX carb shorten the spring for faster throttle response... this is not necessary for the bike to operate, but you will shorten the response time if you shorten it... I would not recommend shortening it past 5 1/16"... that is the lenght of the shorter DJ kit supplied spring and is a proven entity... The Keihin spring is of slightly larger diameter wire so a "safe" fudge factor is built in if you cut it to 5 1/16", most do... you can cut it less than that if you are nervous, but you shouldn't have any problems with 5 1/16"... place the cut end DOWN into the slider piston and resting on the needle cap... uncut end UP against the vacuum cover.. that is the "common" practice (and no bannanas on boats either).
Most any needle design or jet design will work with the Keihin carb as long as they are set to the proper height and have the correct diameter... It has been my findings that the stock Keihin needle and jet work more "smoothly" if properly shimmed than some other designs because of the needle design and large diameter jet size... The Keihin design is just more forgiving and not as "touchy" as some other designs and need I say you are not required to remove the float bowl cover to change main jet sizes?... The Keihin 195 main jet suits most all purposes... if you require more than that you are past the "beginning" tuner stages and in that case you might think about a Keihin 200 or 205 (DJ equivalents of 213 and 218)... I don't think more than a 205(/218) would be required by anyone unless cam, piston, valve and porting changes have been made... in which case I would like to communicate with you on your engine mods and findings... you most likely won't require any "advice", but I would like to hear about extensive engine mods... mine will retain the stock configuration... I have a 1200cc street fighter for speed.
Have fun and if I am "not around" to answer any possible questions (I have a somewhat irregular schedule at times), I would recommend asking Retro Rich.. He has a mechanical mind and a healthy grasp on the tuning philosophy.
Radio Shack Shims:
Radio Shack Part # 64-3022
Package of 100
Steel Flat Washers
20 each: #2, #4, #6, #8, #10
They are in the Hardware section of the store -- In the plastic pull out trays that are divided into sections.. Plastic bag... Looking at the bag I would say we are using the #4 washers.. anyway it is the second from the smallest... we "miched" em several years ago and can't recall, they are like 0.019 or 0.020 or pretty close to that neighborhood.. they work! -- Oh yea, they now cost $1.99/pkg -- inflation.
Any "washer/shim" of similar thickness (0.020") with a hole big enough for the needle to comfortably slide through and small enough for the needle head to sit on will work just fine.
edit: The dang "how to" pics didn't come through.
Biddy
Young, Dumb, full of.....
Bike: 2004 VTX 1300C
Miles: 4000
Trader Rating: (0)
My Photo Gallery
It is common while working with the PAIR removal to "miss" something in the process and have an open vacuum line or "other" air leak. Many who have done both of these mods simultaneously have ended up fiddling with their carb for days/weeks on end chasing their tails looking for what went wrong with the carb tuning while all the time it was an error in the PAIR system removal. There have been some war stories spread about how difficult it is to tune a carburetor.. bull hocky! The most difficult part of tuning a carb on a VTX 1300 is removing the fuel tank for the first time and figuring out how to dissconnect the electrical connectors under the tank.
So, what comes first eh? REMOVE THE FUEL TANK. Follow the directions in the service manual.. everyone should have a service manual.. the money you save in THIS carb tuning process alone will pay for a service manual. The money you save doing your first valve adjust using the service manual would buy a nice set of tools that can be used in OTHER money savings projects... EVERYONE needs a service manual..
Next REMOVE the air filter and backing plate. I won't "get into" hooking and unhooking the hoses attached behind the backing plate, they are pretty straight forward and will become part of your "learning process" of the easiest ways to rapidly navigate through assembly/disassembly.
NOW the carburetor is EXPOSED.
Sitting on top of the carb you will see the vacuum chamber cover.
Remove the cover and then remove the compression spring under the cover.
Now gently grab the diaphram/piston rubber and pull it out.. the Vacuum piston (slider piston is what most old timers call it) is attached to the diaphram and the whole package will come out with it.
YOU ARE ALMOST DONE AND READY TO PUT THINGS BACK TOGETHER.. see, I told you.. removing the tank was the most difficult part of the process... unscrewing the 4 vacuum chamber cover screws was no big deal, right?
Look at the slider piston and you will see a tappered "needle" sticking out the bottom of it, that is the jet needle.
Look inside the slider piston and you will see the Jet needle holder.
The jet needle holder is next to be removed.. you will see in the center of the holder it will accept a Phillips head screwdriver which can be used to "unscrew" the cam locks, BUT the "best" method is to use a small socket and fit over the head of the "cap" and unscrew the cap... I'm thinking it's an 8mm.. difficult to recall those things sometimes at my age, but you'll discover the correct size. Twist the cap counter clockwise just as tho you were unscrewing any "standard" nut or bolt and you will feel a "pop" after making a very small motion.. that was the cams unlocking.. the cap can now be removed, it is "unlocked".
Under the needle holder cap there is a small spring "screwed" onto a plastic "tit" protruding from the bottom of the cap... well actually the "tit" has no threads, so the spring is not "screwed" on, but consider it so... instead of "pulling" the spring off and distorting it's shape, give a "light force" pull on the spring while unscrewing it from the "tit" and set the spring aside. The "tit" does not protrude very far, but it must be "trimmed" for "heavy breather" mods, so go ahead and trim it now even if you are doing a "light breather" tune... Take some TOENAIL clippers (those are the large ones, not to be confused with fingernail clippers) and "snip" the "tit" in half.. that should be enough for heightened needle raising and still provides enough remaining "tit" for the small spring to be screwed back onto... set the needle holder cap aside.
Remove the needle from the slider piston.. place your shims into the needle "point" and make sure they slide all the way to the needle head with the washer/shim hole big enough so free movement along the needle is achieved. Hold the slider piston in your left hand and turn it at an upwards angle and insert the needle INTO the slider piston hole, passing through the CENTER hole in the slider piston (this process will not work for "left handers", you will have to purchase a Yamaha carburetor). Face the slider piston DOWN and the needle should be hanging from the bottom of the slider piston and sitting "on" the shims/washers INSIDE the piston.
Take the SMALL spring that was unscrewed from the underside of the needle holder cap and screw it back onto the shortened "tit" under the needle holder. Put the needle holder cap into the slider piston with the small needle spring tensioner sitting on top of the needle head. (If the 8mm socket is placed onto the top of the needle holder cap "nut" the tension is enough to hold the cap.. the needle cap holder can be easily inserted into the slider piston with this method utilizing a socket extender). Twist the needle holder cap clockwise (even the left handers) as tho "tightening" and you will feel the cams lock into place... that's it, the needle holder is locked. If enough of the "tit" was trimed, this should be a relatively easy "twist"... Hold the slider piston with one hand and "wiggle" the needle with the fingers on the other hand... the needle should "wiggle" (movement), this assures true alignment into the emulsion tube . If the needle is "stiff" and won't "wiggle", then the "tit" was not trimed enough ... go back and trim more from the tit until free needle movement is achieved. (If you are using a DJ needle, the tit must also be trimmed for the same reasons)
Replace the diaphram spring onto the needle holder cap and replace the vacuum chamber cover.. NOTE: There is an irregular "shape" in the cap that must be matched to it's mating surface when remounting, this is what the manual calls the "tab and air passages"... "Snug" the vacuum cap screws and continue reassembly.
Under the carb is the A/F screw (see manual), the stock screw head requires a "D" type tool for adjustment. If you slightly dent the end of an empty .22 shell casing, this will fit into the hole and can be used to unscrew the "D" screw. Take the "D" screw completely OUT. On the top of the "D" screw head will be a spring followed by a washer and then an "O" ring.. save these parts and reasemble in the same order when putting the A/F screw back in.
While the A/F screw is OUT, use a hacksaw blade or some simular device to cut a thin channel into the head of the top of the "D" screw.. this slot or channel should be wide enough for a flathead screwdriver blade to fit into for A/F adjustment. Once the slot has be cut into the screw/needle head and the screwdriver blade fits, replace the spring/washer and "O" ring and replace the A/F needle into the needle jet hole and screw IN. Take your screw driver and screw in the needle until it LIGHTLY seats or stops turning ... don't get anal about this and over tighten or damage could be caused to the needle/jet mating surfaces . If you error on "seating", error on the LOOSE side, final tuning will not be affected by a minute discrepancy of "seating" at this stage of tuning. Turn the A/F screw OUT 2 1/2 turns with the screwdriver.
Reassemble the airbox and fuel tank.
Before firing the engine, look at the CHOKE KNOB and push it in all the way... any flexing of the carb while working on it will flex the choke cable and pull the choke out... it will not run properly with the choke pulled out AT ALL and final tuning cannot be achieved.
Shim heights:
"Open" style airbox and aftermarket "free flow" pipes... usually about 2or 3 shims.
Airbox flowing more air than stock design, but not in the "heavy breathing" class and/or pipes either free flow or somewhat restricted... usually about 1or 2 shims
Stock airbox (K&N filter in stock box is still "stock") and after market pipes... usually 0 or 1 shims
Stock airbox and stock pipes... tune the A/F screw for maximum performance...
A/F settings:
While determining proper main jet circuit settings the A/F screw should be set at 2 1/2 turns and NO adjustments made to it until the high speed circuit has been properly tuned -- Turning the screw IN leans the mixture... turning the screw OUT richens the mixture -- Fine tuning the A/F screw should be done in no more than 1/8 turn increments... very fine tuning will be even less... it is highly recommended to "slot" the "D" screw and tune the A/F screw with a screw driver... a 90 degree drive is useful if you have one... improvise.
SLIDER PISTON SPRING:
That's what I call the big spring directly under the vacuum cap and sitting on the needle holder cap. -- Most tuners that have springs of the type found in the VTX carb shorten the spring for faster throttle response... this is not necessary for the bike to operate, but you will shorten the response time if you shorten it... I would not recommend shortening it past 5 1/16"... that is the lenght of the shorter DJ kit supplied spring and is a proven entity... The Keihin spring is of slightly larger diameter wire so a "safe" fudge factor is built in if you cut it to 5 1/16", most do... you can cut it less than that if you are nervous, but you shouldn't have any problems with 5 1/16"... place the cut end DOWN into the slider piston and resting on the needle cap... uncut end UP against the vacuum cover.. that is the "common" practice (and no bannanas on boats either).
Most any needle design or jet design will work with the Keihin carb as long as they are set to the proper height and have the correct diameter... It has been my findings that the stock Keihin needle and jet work more "smoothly" if properly shimmed than some other designs because of the needle design and large diameter jet size... The Keihin design is just more forgiving and not as "touchy" as some other designs and need I say you are not required to remove the float bowl cover to change main jet sizes?... The Keihin 195 main jet suits most all purposes... if you require more than that you are past the "beginning" tuner stages and in that case you might think about a Keihin 200 or 205 (DJ equivalents of 213 and 218)... I don't think more than a 205(/218) would be required by anyone unless cam, piston, valve and porting changes have been made... in which case I would like to communicate with you on your engine mods and findings... you most likely won't require any "advice", but I would like to hear about extensive engine mods... mine will retain the stock configuration... I have a 1200cc street fighter for speed.
Have fun and if I am "not around" to answer any possible questions (I have a somewhat irregular schedule at times), I would recommend asking Retro Rich.. He has a mechanical mind and a healthy grasp on the tuning philosophy.
Radio Shack Shims:
Radio Shack Part # 64-3022
Package of 100
Steel Flat Washers
20 each: #2, #4, #6, #8, #10
They are in the Hardware section of the store -- In the plastic pull out trays that are divided into sections.. Plastic bag... Looking at the bag I would say we are using the #4 washers.. anyway it is the second from the smallest... we "miched" em several years ago and can't recall, they are like 0.019 or 0.020 or pretty close to that neighborhood.. they work! -- Oh yea, they now cost $1.99/pkg -- inflation.
Any "washer/shim" of similar thickness (0.020") with a hole big enough for the needle to comfortably slide through and small enough for the needle head to sit on will work just fine.
edit: The dang "how to" pics didn't come through.
Biddy
Biddy- Moderate user
- Number of posts : 50
Location : Coupeville Wa
Registration date : 2007-12-17
Re: Shimming stock carb needle
jedishon Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:39 pm
Thanks Biddy
As always you are a wealth of information.
You stated: Shim heights:
"Open" style airbox and aftermarket "free flow" pipes... usually about 2or 3 shims.
Airbox flowing more air than stock design, but not in the "heavy breathing" class and/or pipes either free flow or somewhat restricted... usually about 1or 2 shims
Stock airbox (K&N filter in stock box is still "stock") and after market pipes... usually 0 or 1 shims
Stock airbox and stock pipes... tune the A/F screw for maximum performance...
My question would be: Are stock pipes with the clayton mod considered "free-flow". I will be going with a
specter air filter in a Biddy box set up. And dont know about 2 or 3 shims.
Jerry
As always you are a wealth of information.
You stated: Shim heights:
"Open" style airbox and aftermarket "free flow" pipes... usually about 2or 3 shims.
Airbox flowing more air than stock design, but not in the "heavy breathing" class and/or pipes either free flow or somewhat restricted... usually about 1or 2 shims
Stock airbox (K&N filter in stock box is still "stock") and after market pipes... usually 0 or 1 shims
Stock airbox and stock pipes... tune the A/F screw for maximum performance...
My question would be: Are stock pipes with the clayton mod considered "free-flow". I will be going with a
specter air filter in a Biddy box set up. And dont know about 2 or 3 shims.
Jerry
jedishon- Super User
- Number of posts : 4436
Age : 73
Location : Rogersville, Al
Registration date : 2007-12-18
Re: Shimming stock carb needle
Biddy Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:39 pm
jedishon wrote:Thanks Biddy
As always you are a wealth of information.
You stated: Shim heights:
"Open" style airbox and aftermarket "free flow" pipes... usually about 2or 3 shims.
Airbox flowing more air than stock design, but not in the "heavy breathing" class and/or pipes either free flow or somewhat restricted... usually about 1or 2 shims
Stock airbox (K&N filter in stock box is still "stock") and after market pipes... usually 0 or 1 shims
Stock airbox and stock pipes... tune the A/F screw for maximum performance...
My question would be: Are stock pipes with the clayton mod considered "free-flow". I will be going with a
specter air filter in a Biddy box set up. And dont know about 2 or 3 shims.
Jerry
I would expect them to be more free flowing than in stock form but they may not be as much so as aftermarket pipes. I'm guessing here but would start with 1 or 2 shims and 2-1/2 turns on the A/F fuel screw and see how she runs. Here is a helpful tuning guide by FP: http://www.factorypro.com/tech/carbtun.html Also keep in mind when adjusting the A/F screw a little goes a long ways so fine tune in small increments of 1/4 turn or so. Then once you've got her running good I usually do a few plug chop tests just to make sure she's spot on. Here's another carb tuning link that may come in handy: http://crapmods.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3604 Good luck!
Biddy
Biddy- Moderate user
- Number of posts : 50
Location : Coupeville Wa
Registration date : 2007-12-17
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