Front brake usage

Instead of hyjacking the thread on the Goldwing board ,lets have the discussion over here.I re submit that using the front brake first or as the primary brake is a bad ideal.I understand that 70 or 80% of the braking can be achieved using the front brake in a perfect world but I ride down here.I also understand that my statement goes against the excepted written word of today but I choose to base my conclusions on my own experience,ability and common sense. so Quad,let the debate begin.

Front brake mostly with engine break by downshifting!! Only panic stops I use both front and rear brakes.


..............bobby

I apply both at the same time, and depending on how fast I need to stop is how hard I'm on the front brake.
Of course this applies only on a straight. In a curve I will use just the rear brake if I need to.

I also gear down and will use front brake as last resort but 98% of the time won't touch front brake except for park brake at red light ect.

The best reason to always use both front brakes is because in an emergency you don't have time to consider which brakes to use and must rely on 'muscle memory' or 'learned reaction''. If you normally just use only the front or rear brakes, that is what you will do in a true emergency, then take vital seconds to consider using the other brake. Perhaps this will allow you to stop in time, but there are many cases where this will at least cause you much damage and perhaps kill you.

Of course in the parking lot, or on loose rocks you only want to use the rear brakes, but that's a controlled situation, and you have time to consider. Since the weight shift of the bike from most weight on the rear wheel to having 70 to 80% of the weight on the front wheel during an emergency stop, if you don't use the front wheel for most of the braking, you are sitting yourself up for a bad accident. Just consider the race circuit and watch the Super-Bike racers, they use both brakes, as they must slow down for these turns in a minimum distance. It's doubtful that 1% of the bikers on this forum can handle a bike as well as they do, why not listen to them and the Safety Foundation.

Fly wrote:The best reason to always use both front brakes is because in an emergency you don't have time to consider which brakes to use and must rely on 'muscle memory' or 'learned reaction''. If you normally just use only the front or rear brakes, that is what you will do in a true emergency, then take vital seconds to consider using the other brake. Perhaps this will allow you to stop in time, but there are many cases where this will at least cause you much damage and perhaps kill you.

Of course in the parking lot, or on loose rocks you only want to use the rear brakes, but that's a controlled situation, and you have time to consider. Since the weight shift of the bike from most weight on the rear wheel to having 70 to 80% of the weight on the front wheel during an emergency stop, if you don't use the front wheel for most of the braking, you are sitting yourself up for a bad accident. Just consider the race circuit and watch the Super-Bike racers, they use both brakes, as they must slow down for these turns in a minimum distance. It's doubtful that 1% of the bikers on this forum can handle a bike as well as they do, why not listen to them and the Safety Foundation.

Exactly!

Not a better way to put it Fly !
No reason to discuss this at all.
Robert.

Fly, you are nuts on. Always use them both. Even slow speed dragging the rear I at least cover the front brake. I also wil gently use the front to scrub off speed in a curve when I need to. Brakes are nit an on off switch. They respond to how hard you squeeze. I tell folks I am not a biker, not an enthusiast, I AM A STUDENT OF THE ART OF MOTORCYCLING. As such I practice all the time. To the tune that I only ride a few hundred miles a year. The other 20k plus is just practice. Learn your bike and how it reacts in all conditions and all circumstances. It will save your ass.

See You out there
Smokey

Well I wrote a book with opposing opinions and experiences on most of your concerns but when I posted it .It just left,don't have time to redo it right now but will later .

Larry Simpson wrote:I also gear down and will use front brake as last resort but 98% of the time won't touch front brake except for park brake at red light ect.

Agree with both Fly and Smokey. That said, if I used the front brake in a curve with a Dunflop up front, the bike wanted to go straight. Now with the Bridgestone, it doesn't. So knowing YOUR bike is primary before just grabbing handfulls of binder.
Also, neural learning applies to how many fingers you use. If you are a 1-2 finger stopper, that's what you'll use in a panic. (they say, and I believe so)

The front brake rule is primarily about straight line panic stopping, conditioned by regular usage of the front first. Ask any Motorcop what stops a motorcycle. You'll not hear "rear brake" mentioned.
OTOH, in a fast sweeper, it will DIP the front end, and if you're already on the pegs, slam the frame into the pavement, causing a possible slide, your worst fear. Mountain riding requires practice to really get out and jam it, which is why I run heavier fork oil.

Since the main way bikes go down is with the rear wheel sliding out, the idea of applying the front first (loading the front end) causes you to become more, shall we say, delicate, in the application of the rear. This in turn should lessen the chance of the rear breaking into a skid, especially if you are leaning or have to add lean, which is what caused ME to go down.
I actually should have released the rear, but had not practiced "brake and swerve" maneuvers, in which you panic stop in a straight line, and swerve at the last minute with the brakes OFF. Which at first, I thought was a hilarious concept.

I hear your concernes but with almost 50 years in my experience and common sense tells me that using the front brake as the primary is very dangerous contrary to what is taught today.The roads I ride on are prone to have,sand,dirt and gravel on them at any given time.I can control a rear slide out to the point of laying it down easy if necessary.When the front slides out you are going down hard and head first.I ride defensively and am pretty good at it,as far as the racers I consider the track a controled atmosphere not the highway.I trust my reactions as they have become second nature and as stated will use front brake when necessary but have been using rear as primary sense I was 12.The last bike I had was a goldwing with the integerated brake system,after feeling my front tire loose traction a few times I disconnected it.I personaly know of three goldwings that after being forced off the road into the center median flipped two involved deaths. I submit that it is instinct to hit brake when leaving the road and when your front tire sets in the dirt you are going to flip.If they had been using rear brake proubably would not have flipped.(food for thought) You have your life and passengers in your hands every time you roll.Why would I take for granit what some (expert) says when life teaches me different? Hey they also say the CT won't work RIDE SAFE respectfully Larry S.

29 years ridden with 2 racing on dirt, where rear is definitely primary. Why? The very reason you stated. Correct.
But here in Atlanta, North Georgia mountains and all, there are mostly very clean roads, so I consider it a different enviornment.
Also, for every front wheel slide, I wonder how many REAR wheel slide wrecks there are?

Next, consider that with 65-70% of your braking being the front, if you are going down, is it not better to go down at 30 mph instead of say, 60?
I recall the threads on hitting deer, where the tactic was to hit the deer straight on after panic braking, the idea being that if you are swerving when you make impact, you will be going down. That made sense to me too.
Admittedly the CT helps a lot over MT's, but is still far inferior to the braking power up front.

Interesting about your experience with the linked brakes: I've heard that before.

I have no certain answer for your comparison of number of wrecks reguarding front or rear slides but I would bet on front wheel slides causing more accidents.(bet you didn't see that one comming huh )My reasoning for that bet would be because the front is going to take you down faster with a lot less control. I hope you understand I am not trying to start any arguments this has been something that has bothered me ever sense they started teaching the front brake thing.I stated riding sense 12 but the rear brake usage actually was taught to me long before that on english bicycles and the basic principles haven't changed.I am living proof that this style of riding works well so why did the teaching jump to using the front as primary

From that particular poster on the Paladin Group Riding Academy forum, I'm not sure. But after doing some searching (I couldn't find any answer to "Front wheel vs rear wheel slide wrecks motorcycle") but I did find some very interesting short reads.
Preventing Highsiding:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highsider

The concept of laying it down:
http://bettermotorcycling.wordpress.com/2011/02/22/laying-it-down-fact-or-fiction/

Both here recommend against much rear brake pressure.

Don't know why but can't open either attachment. will keep trying

Rechecked and both open for me. While we're at it, I found a monster of info for different techniques including purposeful corner sliding that makes your stomach iffy :
http://genjac.com/BoomerBiker/Controle.htm

Finally got the highsiding one to open.That to me just depends on the riders ability to control the braking or excelleration.

Finally got the thread on laying it down to open and I can tell you from my own experience he is full of himself and talking about something he evidently knows nothing about.Makes my point exactly,people can put anything in print but it does not make it gospel (all I am saying is use your own comon sense baised on what you know your capibilities are) Don't take for granit what someone that desides they are an expert desides to put in writing.That being said,don't take what I have said as being gospel either,I am no teacher or expert.All I can do is make a call on my own experience and what my gut tells me.If you will just give it some thought my purpose for starting this thread will be accomplished.

well, I fairly agree with a few of your points anyway.
I saw a lot of sense to the "laying it down" article, but one thing he didn't consider was the use of putting the bike between you and what you may be hitting.
Not that it would be a cushy stop either, but I got wrapped around the front bumper of a cage back in the 70's and wished the bike had stayed under me...or me stay on top of it in the slide that is.

I think we both can agree that you should practice evasive and panic maneuvers so that you will have that neural learning in place. Otherwise, your panic is just...panic.

This conversation seems to have played itself out already, but I'll mention that I pretty much always use both brakes. I find that the front brake really doesn't have as much stopping power as my rear -- I have put the 1800 caliper on my VTX 1300.

In that case you very definitely have a very serious problem with your front brake!

quadancer wrote:In that case you very definitely have a very serious problem with your front brake!

I dunno... The caliper is much smaller and single piston. The surface area of brake pad that makes contact w/ rotor would be much smaller. How could it have more stopping power than my dual piston 1800 caliper, with larger pads and more surface area for friction with the rotor? I'm no expert, just looking at the numbers as I see them.

Did you change the master cylinder too?

00 Doc wrote:Did you change the master cylinder too?

Yes, but only because the forward controls came with one built in.