Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

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re qualifilable evidence is the darkside safe or not

Post  Larry Simpson on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:33 pm

Fiy, (IDIOT) correct word,educated person not using comon sense.IE choosing to ignore as revelent all the safe miles that we as darksiders have accumalated over the years.The outcome of any test is dirrectly affected by the input allowed into that test.When a biast person is limiting the input ,you already know the result..
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  quadancer on Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:49 pm

It was FINALLY a video with proper tire pressure for a bike: I HATE those vids with tires in the 40-50 lb. pressures - they look like they are gonna slide, even if they're not.
Dan said it all very well. And the REASON that the Darksiders opinions are so strong is because we're willing to bet our riding lives on them. There is a REASON that 99% of us
will never run a bike tire on the back again, and it's not economy, which just happens to be the initial attraction.
I teach the RLAP style riding in the cones with a 2" over front end, and a CT on the back. I have often invited folks with MT's to come ride the twisties with us, cones, or
anything else. Those who have come are either on CT's or thinking about it. It's not just about skill.
Not blowing my horn. I'm just one of those who won't go back.
Personally, I'm glad to see TrafficSafetyEditor in here this far in. That's standup stuff, so be respectful, guys. Even YOU, Larry!
(I think he's our mascot or something...) Fly made a pretty good point too...for a change...WHAT? You thot I'd let you off the HOOK? HA!!!
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re qualifilable evidence is the darkside safe or not

Post  Larry Simpson on Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:03 am

Why is everybody making me out to be the bad guy here for stating the obvious ???? Did you not read their wright up ??? Do you not take offense to someone thinking we are stupid enought to swallow their statement, car tires are not designed to take the lateral pressure on the sidewall developed by a motorcycle (when we never get on the sidewall to begin with) The steering axle on a car or truck exerts pressure from the weight multiplied by the momentum dirrectly against the sidewall everytime you turn.To me when someone comes at me with a pack of lies they are not asking for a rational discussion,but that being said I will post no more on this subject Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  Doc on Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:43 pm

Wish we had an eating popcorn icon....
I'm still waiting on solid evidence (not somebody's opinion Gaah ) that a car tire on a cruiser or touring motorcycle is unsafe...

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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  quadancer on Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:09 pm

Stick around Larry; we NEED the radical elements too!
I guess it's about time to post my usual link; I think some of the naysayers HEADS should be put in this machine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbYzhpURFDU
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Here's my evidence!!!

Post  street325 on Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:17 am

Hi folks, i have a 2007 Vulcan 2000 and have ridden 5,700 miles on this Nitto NT 450 225/50/r16 tire and it shows virtually now WEAR!!! The tits are still on the sidewall and i promise you I ride the BEAST very aggressive and scrape the floorboards, never feel unsafe at any speed. I would be replacing this tire if were a MT in about 1,000 miles for 300$, i expect at least 25,000 out of this CT, you do the math!! Happy Darksiding!!! PS-will post picture soon, not allowed to download image hoster at work Shrug

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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  coldweatherfreak on Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:15 am

I have a close friend and client that is a nationally recognized forensic engineer that specializes in motorcycle accident reconstruction. I may be able to convince him to do some testing for us.
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  Orygunner on Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:05 am

Well, I had my meeting, and unfortunately it doesn't look good for the Darkside. Here's the summary of what came up at the meeting.

1. There is no quantifiable evidence any of us was able to find that running a car tire on a motorcycle is dangerous.
2. There is no quantifiable evidence any of us was able to find that running a car tire on a motorcycle is safe.
3. There are recommendations from tire and motorcycle industry representatives specifically AGAINST running a car tire on a motorcycle.
4. There is a large amount of anecdotal evidence out there that running a car tire on a motorcycle IS safe and that many people like it.

What the discussion basically came down to is that because there are industry experts specifically recommending against, that there needed to be actual quantifiable evidence that disproved the industry experts, period. It wouldn't matter if, in court, 5000 people took the stand and testified that their car tire is safe, if one expert witness took the stand and stated that, as an industry representative, the tire was never designed for running on a motorcycle, and they state it is unsafe, that would override every "amateur" witness testimony.

One piece that came up that IS fact, is the issue of tire bead and lip diameters and the difference in flange shape. The fact that car tires often take higher pressure to seat on the bead than the maximum pressure recommended by the manufacturer and that the flange shape is different was the only factual piece of information that came out against car tires in the meeting.

@Coldweatherfreak, let us know what your friend says. Until I (or some other darkside advocate) wins the lottery to pay for some actual research, we have to rely on the industry or someone else curious enough to look into it seriously.

...Orygunner...

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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  GEARHEADFLA on Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:08 am

Wonder what would happen if enough of us wrote into Myth Busters on TV if they would take this on for a TV show ? hmmm
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  coldweatherfreak on Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:43 am

Orygunner wrote: It wouldn't matter if, in court, 5000 people took the stand and testified that their car tire is safe, if one expert witness took the stand and stated that, as an industry representative, the tire was never designed for running on a motorcycle, and they state it is unsafe, that would override every "amateur" witness testimony.

hence my thoughts of finding a professional expert


Orygunner wrote:. The fact that car tires often take higher pressure to seat on the bead than the maximum pressure recommended by the manufacturer and that the flange shape is different was the only factual piece of information that came out against car tires in the meeting.
...Orygunner...

there are common misconceptions about that the numbers on the sidewall of tires means, in very few cases, does it state a "maximum" pressure , rather a maximum load and the corresponding pressure you need to support the maximum load, but nowhere does it say "max pressure"

its quite common even when mounting a car tire on a car rim that you need to exceed the pressure on the sidewall to seat the bead, so having to do it when mounting on a bike wheel is nothing unusual

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-1998-title49-vol5/xml/CFR-1998-title49-vol5-sec571-119-id524.xml
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Quantifiable evidence

Post  Dan Koich on Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:17 am

Two areas of thought:

1.) Mr Editor at TrafficSafe: What have you done in follow-up since we last heard from you?

2.) I recently read in the Motorcycle Riders Foundation Report that Oklahoma State University Transportation Systems Engineering School is a leading research center for all things related to transportation. Perhaps a grad student or some other entity within the University could initiate a study of the Darkside that could provide "quantifiable evidence". Anybody got any connections there?

What Orygunner wrote regarding his meeting concerns me in that if the insurance industry only listens to the industry experts, they could easily make it impossible for us to run on the darkside. Quantifiable evidence should effectively negate that. I also believe that if we have experts show that car tires are indeed safe, we will get a broader selection of good tires for our cycles.

It just can't be that difficult!

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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  quadancer on Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:40 pm

Or because of industry greed, ignorance, and other concerns, they outlaw the use of what we have found to be safer and better in virtually every way.
THAT is my concern.
I don't want to be getting tickets for riding on a tire that lasts 3-5 times longer, has 3 times the grip, stabilizes in curves, is
smoother riding, has STEEL belts to make it indestructible, and is HANDS DOWN better than MT's in the rain. And cheaper to buy.
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  GEARHEADFLA on Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:44 pm

In my opinion, and that's what it is, my opinion, the motorcycle industry has moved away from the heavy long haul touring bikes like most of us here ride, there is the Goldwing, BMW, Harley Ultras, 1700 Kaw Voyagers and maybe a couple others that I am missing, I saw somewhere that the majority of buyers are the younger people and buying sport bikes AKA crotch rockets, and they need the soft gumball tires on them so the low performance riders can ride the high performance bikes, so that's what the tire manufacturers cater to in R&D, light weight very high powered machines, and we got left in the shadows, so now we get soft compound that don't last on a half ton bike, twice the weight of the crotch rockets. with all the R&D done they drive up the price plus the liability of the low performance rider and high performance bikes (we read about them everyday in the news) in over their heads and getting hurt or worse and blaming everything but themselves in court drives the price up even more. Next time you go to the stealership look around the showroom
90% of the bikes there will be crotch rockets other than the Harley Dealer. Like I said before, if the MC tire manufacturers come out with a affordable tire for a half ton machine that will last 25 or 30k then I'm in, until then, may the force be with me.
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  coldweatherfreak on Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:37 am

curisers are still the majority of bikes sold in the US
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  quadancer on Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:58 pm

Dunno about that, but the tires for bikes have more categories than they used to (I.E. "Motorcycle Tire") - I ride my cruiser like a nut, so up front I look for SportCruiser series tires.
For the back, there just isn't any bike tire that compares to what I've found Darkside.
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  lostintexas on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:29 am

Interestin thread. I never thought I would see this one played out here. Other forums, yes, but not here.
Anyhoo, I am still looking for the evidence that MC tires ARE safe. Don't give me the hoopla about the "made for" thing, it is BS. In the last 10 years, (well 7 of the first 10), I had 11 delaminations. Different makers, all proprely inflated, most still inflated to proper pressure, some internal, some external, and a little farther back, a blowout of a tire that had less than 20 miles on it and had just been picked up from the dealer for said tire replacement.
I know some bikes are harder on tires than others, and some just really have no need or business for a DS tire. It is a fact, however after wrecking that many tires, I have never had the same problem on a DS tire. I have enven tried to flog them when close to the end of life and,,,,,,,,,,,,,Nothing. No drama, no surprises, no slipping, cupping or,,,,,,,,,,,,well just nothing.
The auto and MC industry have to protect their wear out production. Tires, oil changes, yadd, yadda, and I understand that. MC tires are expensive because they are specialty tires and because people pay the price demanded for thinking they have no choice. Michellin, used as an example earlier, has come out with a gem in their PilotII, or so it seems, as an answer to the Dunlop for the HD in the 180/65 flavor. There are some folks listening, but the R&D is expensive and the return is slow. Where as an automotive tire sells many times the numbers and is a little easier to swallow the expence.
I am happy I live in a state that I have yet to be hassled by an inspection station. I did ask a shop after the inspection once and they said the state requires DOT for highway use tires, they are that and have no special designator on them, so no problem. Now I have to admit a not so open minded person could have given me grief, but so far so good. They said they see a lot more Darksiders every year on the bikes they go through. They still won't test ride a DS bike, but will to inspect them, go figure.
Just a spin to the mix to keep up interest.

Cheers

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The Verdict is in. Car tires are now disallowed in my organization.

Post  Orygunner on Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:38 am

Well, the results of the meeting we had are in. Because there is no actual quantifiable evidence for or against whether Motorcycle Tires are safe, but the industry "experts" all agree it should NOT be done, so the organization I am affiliated with has decided to ban motorcycle tires for its students and employees. Guess I'll be leaving the DarkSide on my Vulcan 2000 within a couple months. Sad

Unless someone comes up with actual evidence, either an official research study or other (not anecdotal) evidence that car tires on motorcycles are safe, that's what we're stuck with.

Thanks for your help and the discussion, folks.

...Orygunner...

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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  bandito_two on Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:17 pm

This snippet from my post in the sticky "4 Years"

I say this to potential darksiders, those who are curious and are considering going or those that will be going to the Darkside:

If it works out, then good for you. It won't matter what anyone else says when you KNOW you are right about your decision. Be quietly satisfied with yourself, speak honestly and modestly of your success and let the naysayers eat crow.

What tickles me is that a long time vehement detractor on a scooter forum I go to, apparently saw the light (isn't that a funny thing to say about going to the Darkside? lafer ) and went darkside after about 3 years of watching what other darksiders were doing and saying about it.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
I now have just over 33,000 trouble free miles on my little car tire..... on my 250cc Honda Reflex scooter! yeah
Pride is a hard thing for some to let go of. It seems many of these so called experts in the main are so stuck on their world view that they refuse to back out and admit that maybe they are wrong after all. And likely they might refuse to participate in something that very well may in fact confirm their error. Yes, the truth can be frightening affraid , even if that truth is overwhelming anecdotal evidence. IMO anyway, experts by and large are just folks that get paid for their opinions. (as long as those opinions go along in line with company politics.)

Funny thing happened one time at a gas station. A guy looked over at my scooter and thought it had a flat. I told him "Nope, it looks like that because it's a car tire." To which he responded "Wow, really? but isn't that dangerous?" I said "No, I don't think so. But if it is, then your car there is four times as dangerous since it has four car tires on it." (Man does that have a ring of truth to it or what?)
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  Shockwave on Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:44 am

Orygunner wrote:Well, the results of the meeting we had are in. Because there is no actual quantifiable evidence for or against whether Motorcycle Tires are safe, but the industry "experts" all agree it should NOT be done, so the organization I am affiliated with has decided to ban motorcycle tires for its students and employees. Guess I'll be leaving the DarkSide on my Vulcan 2000 within a couple months. Sad

Unless someone comes up with actual evidence, either an official research study or other (not anecdotal) evidence that car tires on motorcycles are safe, that's what we're stuck with.

Thanks for your help and the discussion, folks.

...Orygunner...

I have no idea what organization you are with but there is no way in hell anyone would tell me what I can or can't run on my bike. Period.
I work for Chrysler and bought a new Ford. They didn't like it but TFB.

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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  Doc on Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:59 pm

The only thing I ask, is for those saying it can't be done, please get out of the way of those of us doing it... hmmm

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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  quadancer on Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:17 pm

Orygunner wrote:Well, the results of the meeting we had are in. Because there is no actual quantifiable evidence for or against whether Motorcycle Tires are safe, but the industry "experts" all agree it should NOT be done, so the organization I am affiliated with has decided to ban motorcycle tires for its students and employees. Guess I'll be leaving the DarkSide on my Vulcan 2000 within a couple months. Sad
Unless someone comes up with actual evidence, either an official research study or other (not anecdotal) evidence that car tires on motorcycles are safe, that's what we're stuck with.
...Orygunner...

So...you stuck your neck out trying to prove you're right, and the den of wolves who eat chickens for breakfast just had your eggs. Again, I say the less press our choices get the better for all of us.
To the guy who called all the insurance companies, I'd like to bust your big mouth for good. Thankfully, the regs are on our side, or that could have cause us ALL trouble.
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  GEARHEADFLA on Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:29 pm

We may have to become U.D. (Underground Darksiders) Vader Shrug
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  Steve-O on Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:04 pm

Nobody will ever test the CT on a motorcycle and "bless it" for use on motorcycles. Won't happen. But there are many of us that have put millions of miles on these tires accident free.

IMHO, the CT is safer than MT for one reason. The rear brake. When I rode on MT and locked up the back wheel, the back end would drift around....if you release the brake while this is happening, you are subject to a "high side". With my CT, I've never had this happen. I know at 45 mph (haven't tested it any faster), I can lock up the back tire and it tracks straight. CT also has the advantage in the rain.

Now, if I was going on a track or twisties and aggressively ride a bike, I'd be on a MT. But I'm on a cruiser and last few MTs I removed were as flat as the MT that replaced them. Just my 2 centavos.
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  rrounds on Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:24 pm

Steve-O wrote:
Now, if I was going on a track or twisties and aggressively ride a bike, I'd be on a MT. But I'm on a cruiser and last few MTs I removed were as flat as the MT that replaced them. Just my 2 centavos.

Why? When I see FJR's on a C/T and they still scrape the pegs that tells me you can get a very good lean angle with a C/T. They can lay their bikes over much farther than I can with my cruiser and my cruiser can lean over more than most cruisers(that's why I bought it) and I ride the twisties most of the time, hell I hate the freeway.

ROD

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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  quadancer on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:53 pm

Heck I LIVE for the twisties, sparkin' not parkin' - and it's been SO much better and stable with the CT. I honestly can't imagine
why anyone would want to avoid twisties on a cruiser with a CT. I get more lean angle (plus the longer front end helps) and only
have to worry about the front slipping, not the back.
Shinko 777 on front - she don't slip.
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