Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

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Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  Orygunner on Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:21 pm

HI,

I've been running the Darkside for 2 years and over 10,000 miles now on my 2005 Vulcan 2000 Limited. I have an opportunity to have a discussion on the subject with some motorcycle safety professionals, and they have requested that I bring any quantifiable evidence regarding the safety of the practice of running a car tire on motorcycles.

The only problem is, I can't FIND any. Sure, I could point out the thousands of riders registered on this forum and others, and I could compile the reports from different riders and their reported trouble-free mileage, but that's all just anecdotal evidence gathered from people who believe in the practice.

Have there been any actual surveys, studies, or anything else regarding car tires on motorcycles? Any new testing data from any legitimate, official sources such as tire or motorcycle manufacturers?

Thanks,

...Orygunner...

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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  quadancer on Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:14 pm

First off, I think the more press we get, eventually the sooner the greedy beurocrats (sp) will begin legislation. Then MT manufacturors will make a better bike tire, that will
cost even more than the present ones do, and we will be REQUIRED to run them instead of CT's, since there will probably be a new "designation" on the tire, qualifying it for
use on a bike. Ever see anything go any other way with something good?
Second: you're not gonna find any studies that haven't been done. Were it me, I'd take a few Darkside buds along, with your bikes, about 25 cones, and invite your "safety
experts" to bring their bikes and join you in some panic stops, and serious cone work. I'll take on any one of them with my stretched Harley out there, and I very seriously
doubt they will show me up in any of it.
Even better than panic stops, I think would be rear brake only stops, unlinked brakes. You'd slaughter them. Then just take them out for a few 70 mph board scraping
sweepers and wait for their next blog.
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  GEARHEADFLA on Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:38 pm

The motorcycle "experts" will NEVER admit that just maybe they are wrong about car tires. Then they wouldn't be "experts". I am the first to admit I was wrong, just a year ago I would have never put a CT on a bike, then I did my own research here and anywhere else I could find to prove I was right, but I proved to myself that I was wrong, put a CT on my bike just to show myself that it just won't work, now 4000 miles later I will never go back unless the MC tire company's come up with a good tire to put on my 900 lb bike that will last longer and not cost $300.00. I say just let the "experts" go their own way and I'll just go mine, even if it does mean keeping up with them on the Dragon with a tire ratio of 4 for them to 1 for me before going to the bike shop for a overpriced tire. I have a half worn out rear Dunlop E-3 still on a rim in my garage that will remain there just to remind me it only has about 4000 miles on it and would be costly to replace, so just ride and have fun with it, don't matter what "they" think. Shrug Ask them instead of you showing them proof that they are safe, show you proof that they aren't and show something on paper that a bike went down at the fault of the rear tire and not rider error, MC or CT.
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Quantifiable evidence

Post  Dan Koich on Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:16 pm

If you google "Riding on the Darkside", the 10th link down is from an organization called TrafficSafe. They spew a lot of the same crap that we've always heard, but in the link they reference the fact that a major on line tire dealer recently declared one of their car tires to be safe on a motorcycle. This is the statement that Traffic Safe took up the fight against:
" A major online tire retailer in the USA recently published a recommendation to riders of Goldwing and Valkyrie motorcycles to use a Michelin car tire on the rear wheel , quoting advantages such as improved comfort and traction with less effect from road gravel on handling.
The website reassures “darkside” riders that the practice is safe and that the 195/55R16 Michelin Primacy Alpin PA3 ZP is the ideal tyre of choice for the owners of such motorcycles."

The online tire dealer is not identified by Traffic Safe. Traffic Safe goes on to declare car tires unsafe on motorcycles for the same old reasons we've all heard before.

If somebody takes all the data in the databases on car tire use on motorcycles, compiles it into an excel spreadsheet, quotes several of the positive testimonials from Darksiders, and writes a narrative about it, it becomes a "study".


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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  Doc on Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:53 pm

You won't find proof it is safe. They are asking for proof that nothing happens, Shrug there is nothing to measure.

Ask them for the proof that it is not safe!
Have them show you documentation that the use of a car tire caused an unsafe event.
That is something that can be measured.

By the way, I have never seen any of that data either! Vader

_________________

2012 Goldwing Candy Red
Michelin Alpin PA3 195/55/16   The Darkside... Ain't nothin' but a rubber thang...  Vader
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re qualifilable evidence is the darkside safe or not

Post  Larry Simpson on Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:08 pm

This comes up ever so often,what I can't figure out is how they got to be so called professionals when they are so ready to make negative statements with no facts to back them up.Also for the life of me I can't figure out why we are suppose to care what they think or say to begin with. What they say doesn't affect the handling of my bike a bit. Shrug Shrug
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  jedishon on Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:04 am

Sticks and stones may break my bones but riding on a car tire will never hurt me.

Jerry

P.S. nice 1000th post Larry
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  Fly on Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:44 am

Don, I searched "riding on the darkside" and could not find this link. I went to the 'trafficsafe' website that google says was looking for accidents caused by car tires on bikes and that link has been ended on their site. Since Michelin also makes bike tires, it makes me wonder. I'd love to get more information on this, not that I'm afraid or will ever go back to bike tires, I'm just a news junky.

If you, or anyone, actually has a link to a website that shows statistical evidence, I'd really like to know so that I can do some research. TIA


Dan Koich wrote:If you google "Riding on the Darkside", the 10th link down is from an organization called TrafficSafe. They spew a lot of the same crap that we've always heard, but in the link they reference the fact that a major on line tire dealer recently declared one of their car tires to be safe on a motorcycle. This is the statement that Traffic Safe took up the fight against:
" A major online tire retailer in the USA recently published a recommendation to riders of Goldwing and Valkyrie motorcycles to use a Michelin car tire on the rear wheel , quoting advantages such as improved comfort and traction with less effect from road gravel on handling.
The website reassures “darkside” riders that the practice is safe and that the 195/55R16 Michelin Primacy Alpin PA3 ZP is the ideal tyre of choice for the owners of such motorcycles."

The online tire dealer is not identified by Traffic Safe. Traffic Safe goes on to declare car tires unsafe on motorcycles for the same old reasons we've all heard before.

If somebody takes all the data in the databases on car tire use on motorcycles, compiles it into an excel spreadsheet, quotes several of the positive testimonials from Darksiders, and writes a narrative about it, it becomes a "study".

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Quantifiable Evidence

Post  Dan Koich on Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:56 am

trafficsafe.org/.../trafficsafe-investigates-riding-on-the-dark-side-168...

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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  Orygunner on Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:23 am

Thanks for the replies, everyone. It pretty much appears to be as I suspected, still no solid evidence on either side.

It's a pretty intelligent group I'll be talking with about the subject. Still, I'm concerned that the reports of "experts" out there that claim it's dangerous (without any actual evidence it is) may have enough sway in this meeting to override the fact they don't have evidence of such.

...Orygunner...

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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  Fly on Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:13 am

Sorry Don, this incomplete link can't be followed. Any searches for "darkside" or "dark-side" on their site shows no results. If you could please put in back up, but click to "link button" above the text area. TIA

Dan Koich wrote:trafficsafe.org/.../trafficsafe-investigates-riding-on-the-dark-side-168...
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  quadancer on Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:00 am

Just copy and paste without the 3 periods at the end and the link will open to the biggest crock of unfounded crap you've seen YET!!! It's even
worse than that bike magazine article we all got pissed at. Talk about clueless! But at least they did (one time) say, "In our opinion"...but that's
gonna carry more weight than OUR opinion, because of course, they are the "experts".
Makes you wanna VOMIT!
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  rrounds on Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:10 pm

http://trafficsafe.org/index.php/trafficsafe-investigates-riding-on-the-dark-side-1683/

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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  TrafficSafe Editor on Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:34 am

The online tire retailer referred to in our article was simpletire.com and we began our investigation based on a press release they issued on 26th April (http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/4/prweb9448044.htm) advocating darkside riding.

We spoke to Michelin, a UK tire safety advocacy group and insurance companies in both the UK and US before publishing our findings rather than simply using our own opinions and our own expert. Michelin were particularly concerned that their car tires were being marketed in such a way, saying that the lateral loads encountered on solo motorcycle tires aren't considered in the design of car tires. Using car tires in such a way would result in rapid deterioration of the side walls and the edge of the tread.

After simpletire.com read our article, they publicly retracted their endorsement of darkside riding on May 29th (http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/5/prweb9554364.htm).

At TrafficSafe, we have no axe to grind, our purpose is to promote safe motoring and to raise awareness of emerging technology which helps to achieve that. We hope that the weight of opinion from industry experts will at least help to encourage some darksiders to replace their tires with those that are designed for use on solo motorcycles.

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Quantifiable Evidence

Post  Dan Koich on Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:13 am

Orygunner--I hope this isn't veerying off topic now.

to the editor of Traffic Safe:
I find it interesting that you replied to this Darkside thread and that you apparently read this forum. I also find it disappointing that you didn't contact anyone on this forum during your investigation regarding the use of car tires on motorcycles. Perhaps you contacted someone on one of the other forums? I find that to be biased reporting, and certainly non-comprehensive in reporting on an issue. Unless I missed something, your article only reported on half the issue! You state that your mission is to promote safety and to report on new technology. If you really read the accounts of the thousands of motorcyclists that have used car tires on motorcycles, you cannot come to any conclusion other than to know that the Darksiders have come upon something that is safer. On this forum, the members are not a member of an organization, so we don't have the ability or resources to conduct studies to disprove what the "experts" have told you. Our collective experience shows that the experts are wrong! They've missed something. You missed something. I would challenge you and your organization to use your resources to spend the time necessary to read this forum (and/or others), compile data records on the use of car tires on motorcycles, identify any actual safety problems, accidents, or fatalities that have occurred, and then report on it. Do not tell us, or the general public, the opinions of people (experts) with no experience. Then promote unbiased industry testing to provide us with better, safer, longer lasting tires. Go back up in this thread and re-read Doc's statement. Take the bias out of your reporting. You'll see that were onto something good. When your're finished, you'll help up import tires from the UK and Europe to the US that fit our cycles better and give us a broader selection to choose from. That will promote cycle safety! I need a decent 175-75R-16. Thank You.

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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  GEARHEADFLA on Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:38 am

The nail has been hit right on the head, cheers and we WILL NEVER see Safety post a reply to that I'm bettin.
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  TrafficSafe Editor on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:11 pm

Well I doubt that this will all end with us all having a group hug round the camp fire but I'm quite willing to enter into any reasonable debate on the matter and, along with the tire industry, I'd be very happy to be proven wrong. However, until that happens, I'd prefer to err on the side of caution which, as a road safety advocate, you can't really blame me for.

I did scour the forums when I wrote the article and I actually submitted it to THIS forum in May to solicit debate but the forum owners removed it and banned me (thanks chaps!) so I'm surprised I've lasted this long the second time round.

Getting back to the original thread generator's question about verifiable information, sadly I don't think there is any. Everything is anecdotal. The tire industry is playing it safe and saying CTs are not designed for MCs so don't use them. Darksiders say they have no problems, they're comfortable and they can beat anyone through the cones or on brake trials....... all anecdotal.

No-one has actually studied it and come up with conclusive verifiable facts.

My "opinion" as an engineer falls on the side of the tire industry. They design these things for cars, not bikes. The way they disperse surface water, the ways they flex under lateral loading, the distribution of the tread pattern.... everything about them is designed for something that DOESN'T lean into corners. I would certainly not like to take a 900lb bike at 70mph into a bend with rubber that isn't designed to take those lateral loadings, I don't care how much anecdotal evidence there is to the contrary.

However, that is just my opinion. In the absence of any studies and evidence either way, I respect your opinions and I hope you respect mine.

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re qualifilable evidence is the darkside safe or not

Post  Larry Simpson on Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:06 pm

Well mr safety expert in my opinion you sir qualify as an opinionated idiot that doesn't want the truth to be known,you want to qualify all the miles and riders experience on the darkside as antidotal and all the ones with no experience as revelent to the subject (what is wrong with that equasion???) If it was a true evaluation you were after you first have to include all the revelent information on the subject and I submit experience should rate 110% over any sumation.I have over 50 years of riding experience under my belt ,how much do you have??????? thumbup thumbup
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  CutterDuck on Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:18 pm

I don't think you will find what you are looking for. Only thing that is out there besides testimony of Darksiders are a few videos that have been made of the tires in action. That is in no way what anyone who doubts would consider as qualifiable. However, I have been searching extensively on the net for evidence of accidents that can be determined to be caused by a Car Tire, especially one that "comes off the rim" as I have seen posted so many times. I hear of the "increasing" number of Darkside related accidents that are driving up the cost to insurance companies, blah, blah, blah but so far, those who type such jibberish cannot produce their evidence of such.

Here is a new tire that is being test on a GL1800. Hope you enjoy the vid.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBuscFKj1e0&feature=youtu.be
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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  GEARHEADFLA on Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:34 pm

I do respect your opinion Safety, but also respect mine and ours, we have tested and rode many many miles and on many bikes here. The report states that car tires are not designed to run on the side wall, I ask you to look at this picture of my rear tire with just over 4000 miles on it now on a 900 lb bike with a 280 lb rider, put my 130 lb girl friend on the back that's over a half ton of machine coming down the road, notice the "dirt pattern" not the wear pattern because there is no wear yet. It very well shows that this tire stays on the treads and don't even touch the side walls, if fact notice the little rubber nipples just after the treads. And yes it has been on the pegs a couple time but I'm not a aggressive rider most of the time. I would like to challenge you to ride Darkside for a week as a study and report it. Please don't take this as disrespect, as it is not at all, just stating the facts of my own "studies" I have been riding motorcycle almost daily for 35 years now and have no death wish at all.

Here's a friend of mine on the dragon on the same bike and tire I have, pegs are draggin.

You up for the challenge?
Now here's the "shot" as far as I'm concerned E-3 MT at 4500 miles beside the CT I replaced it with, now what one would you rather be in the rain with?
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Quantifiable evidence

Post  Dan Koich on Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:02 pm

Mr Editor: I don't know why anyone would be banned from a forum unless there was an excessive amount of profanity, certainly not for asking reasonable questions. So I hope you can stay with this thread and do something good. You state that you're an engineer, and we also know that your an editor, and editors write opinions. We see those in the newspapers every day. I respect your right to have an opinion, and to express it, but twice you have shown so much bias in your opinions that I do not respect your opinion. You have to earn the respect of the readers of this forum. You've gathered opinions from like minded engineers, and with your engineering background, you agree with them and completely disregard what actually happens in the real world of motorcycle riding--- completely disregard the experience of hundreds, if not thousands of riders with millions of miles of car tire use on cycles. Then you use your influence with your organization to present those opinions. Engineers make mistakes too. So do editors.
I think you have a great opportunity to promote motorcycle safety: Use your organizations resources, and your influence and contacts with your friends in the tire industry together with the membersof this forum (and other forums) to accomplish something positive. We know what you've written so far is not accurate or positive. I again restate my challenge to you to take this issue on and have the tests done that prove we are wrong. I'm sure that if you ask the members of this forum to assist in tests that you will get positive responses to your requests. Except (maybe) from Larry.

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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  TrafficSafe Editor on Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:24 am

Thanks for you comments Dan. I think you're right. This argument needs to be put to bed once and for all but it's going to take a lot of work and a lot of digging around so we shouldn't expect results overnight. The opinions of the darkside community are SO strong that it's worth investigating further. I'll chew over an approach in the next couple of days.

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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  Fly on Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:02 am

A reasonable response from someone who advocates caution is answered by those calling them an idiot, childish behavior at best. As the safety editor stated, all evidence from both sides is not quantifiable (correct word). As to being banned, there are a few users on this forum that weld far too much pressure against those that might oppose them on any subject to not suggest this was done to placate them.

Radicals and radical statements from those who do run car tires will not help, open conversation will. Just using these tires isn't any proof they are safe, tires manufactures saying that shouldn't be used is merely lawyer speak for, "We've got to say this just in case there is a lawsuit."

For one, I really would like to see some actual lab and test track studies on this subject, it could lead to active research and development of much better, cheaper bike tires.
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Quantifiable evidence

Post  Dan Koich on Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:38 am

Cutterduck:

What is the tire brand, model and size in the video?

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Re: Quantifiable evidence - is the darkside safe, or not?

Post  CutterDuck on Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:59 am

Dan Koich wrote:Cutterduck:

What is the tire brand, model and size in the video?

It is a Yokohama Avid Envigor ZPS and I believe it is a 195/55/16. I know the guy who made the vid and will check to see if size is correct. It is a 195 and the tire is also available in 205.


Last edited by CutterDuck on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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