not a stupid question(why a car tire)

Below I have copied a question by a member (TwistedX) and a reply that as it turns out is quite comprehensive by Twin1300, good job Bobby.

Twisted-X wrote:
OK I think I understand why alot of people are riding on the darkside, better mileage out of their tires. But my main question is about the safety issue, how safe is it ? Motorcycle tires are rounded to allow a better contact area with the road especially during hard cornering. A car tire doesnt really allow for this. I would think during hard cornering you are on a very small edge of the tire. I am stricktly taking a stab in the dark here (no pun intended) and guessing that for most people riding on the darkiside, that they are primarily riding on freeways or interstates, therefor do not come across too many hard winding turns. Is my assumption correct? Please fill me in on this. Also please dont tell me to use the search, Ive probably read 50 pages and yet to find out my answer. Thanks in advance !

Twisted,

Glad to have you here and yes, valid questions. At least you can come here without being blasted for asking the question. So here it goes..........

!. Our tires are NOT flat! The have the same contour of a worn motorcycle tire. The only reason you change the motorcycle tire is NOT because it doesn't handle any more, it's because it's out of rubber in the middle. Our Darksides just start and stay that way. When we wear a car tire out, the whole tire is gone. Not so with the motorcycle tire. You still have good sidewalls left....about 50% of the tire is unused. We use the whole tire whether riding straight or when doing twisties, we have about 40% of the contact patch is still on the ground in the twisties. It's still larger than a motorcycle tire can produce. (Even a 3/4 worn car tire still has rain grooves left, NOT so with a motorcycle tire)

2. Just so you know, we don't run low air pressure and flex the sidewalls to make it work. We use the roll of the tire just like a motorcycle tire and never get on the sidewalls. This Mod is for a cruiser only because by the time we get leaned to get close to gettting off the tread and onto the sidewalls, we are dragging everthing on our bikes and couldn't lean any more if we wanted to. (I have done the tread pattern by running it thru water and then making tight turns...the car tire contact patch is always a twice that of the motorcycle tire.

3. If a vehicle that weight 3500 lbs. on the average can't destroy a car tire all the while stressing the side walls while the rim of the wheel stays on it's on plane and the tire stresses and flexes and distorts and doesn't fail while traveling on another plane...how much more damage could we do if we never stress our car tires and always under any condition we ride in, our tires stay directly in line with rim and the line of motion. Plus loaded we (motorcycles) can only at best put a 1/4 of load on it that a vehicle could put on it.

4. The statement that we only run hiways and interstates couldn't be further from the truth. I have dragged my pipes so much since going to the darkside, that they looked wrecked...hehehehe I have already tore all the peg indicators off my pegs from diving in so hard that instead of scraping the just snapped off. Do some research on here and you will see all kinds of twisty riding from Valk's to wing's to X's and they have ridden all over this country. Check out Daniel Meyers site and see where's he's ridden a car tire and he will never, ever go back to a motorcycle tire. You see at many post's and this is common..."I wouldn't go back to a motorcycle tire on the rear if they were free!" It's true. I want go back either, even if they were free.

5. Biggest myth is that motorcycle tires wear out because they have softer rubber....Myth Busted! They have harder rubber, that's why wet riding conditions they slip so much. I have a durometer and I have tested at least 30 motorcycle tires to car tires...and in every case my car tire was at least 15 to 20 points softer than any motorcycle tire I tested. That's why wet riding conditions and twisties the car tire kicks butt every time. Softer is more traction every time. My son races karts and we are always looking for softer compounds and ways to make more grip. Now, why does our car tires last twice to 4 times as many miles than a M/T is because ALL our C/T's tread is working together instead of one little contact patch of a M/T. I know this might sound ignorant...but the world's flat where I live and motorcycle tires are round. It's gonna wear 4 times faster.
***Here's the durometer link******* ( Click the below link!)

http://mcdarksiders.forumotion.com/general-discussion-f6/durometer-test-on-205-and-dunniepics-added-t557.htm?highlight=durometer

6. I don't expect you to trust us...but look on here and PM some guys in your area and just watch or follow some one around who has a darkside. You will be impressed. Plus, if it didn't work then the Boss Hoss's would be out of business. Think about it. How much HP do they have and the C/T works for them...they could put a 300 M/T on back, but it doesn't hold up or could handle the HP even in twisties. You don't hear of them wrecking every time they get to a curve...hehehehe

7. This mod only came about because some of us where daily riders or traveled for a living and every 6,000 to 8,000 miles we had to put a new tire on with 50% of it still good and the prices keeps going up. We didn't do it for the money only...it's the principle and practical nature of the abuse put on a M/T. It doesn't work on high HP cruisers.

8. This mod isn't for every one. If you only ride 5,000 miles a year. Fagitaboutit! It isn't for you. If you are a daily commuter or traveler and you want a tire to handle any thing mother nature or a road condition (including twisties) can throw at you....then this is your way to go.

9. Collect all the data you can and NOT from guys who don't put their lives on the line and ride every day and put their money where they mouth is.....or better said. Don't take advice from guys who don't do what you are planning to do. The more data you got the better decision you can make. So, good luck with your decision and if we can help, WE WILL BE THERE FOR YOU.

10. Remember, this is a mod that you do willing. If we wanted to be safe on the road, we would buy a SUV. We already have picked the most dangerous hobby any one can think of for riding America's roads against cagers.....hehehehehe

Thanks for asking. This probably doesn't answer all you questions, but it will get you started toward the Darkside. The best advice I can give you.....is read all the stuff on here dedicated the the riding of the car tire...I promise you, someone else has asked the same question. Plus we posted on the stickies of some of our topic headings the list on names of guys who are riding the car tire and their models and tire used. We are a new site..only two and half months old, so not a lot of guys have found us yet that do the darkside but we are growing.


................bobby

ps....Plus most of car tires can be run with little or NO extra mod work required and in most case go wider with no extra mods.


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Nice Larry...good work making a very informative and helpful sticky. Now get back to work.

Twin, great answer, I'll keep that one to copy and paste it to fellow riders here on the island.
Also thanks to Twisted for the way he asked the question.
After twins short information nobody will need to add something, that's for sure and I fully subscripe
the content of twins story.
Our island is just 40 miles in lenght and overall 5 miles wide, so yes, it's pretty small, too small to
know the max. speed of my X, which is totally not important by the way.
One thing for sure, not really highways here, so for me a lot of cornering her, without any problems,
although all of my fellow riders here still keep asking me "When you gonna change that tire".
In the mean time, I scrape my brand new pipes every riding day, while a lot of these fellows can not
even follow me taking a fast corner.
For me no high miles in a year. I have almost no rear fender and the darkside looks awesome, it's just
the kick for me everybody looking at my ass and telling me it can't be good.
Well Twister, it's not if, but when ! Let us know.
P.S. Twin: Yep I know, I'm letting you down, but d..., I'm too busy !

CaribCruiser wrote:

P.S. Twin: Yep I know, I'm letting you down, but d..., I'm too busy !

Don't sweat it.....I know you busy, but when you can come and play with us, please do! I'll be your wingman anytime.....


ps........I can't ever have a double darkside, wife wouldn't like it....so you are it........

.

Very thoughrow couldn't add any thing if I wanted to.. My wifes 600VLX came with stock Dunnies which I know to be inferior to most MC tires, told her I am going to put her on the darkside soon!! She hasn't ridden since October, so when she gets back on she won't even know the difference.. But I believe in the Darkside 100% and feel that she will be safer, if not, I'm rich, just paid her life insurance!!!! Justa Jokin, Love her to death, oops
Ride Safe All, Check your pressure, and hit those twisties.. CLIFF

vtxreaper wrote:Very thoughrow couldn't add any thing if I wanted to.. My wifes 600VLX came with stock Dunnies which I know to be inferior to most MC tires, told her I am going to put her on the darkside soon!! She hasn't ridden since October, so when she gets back on she won't even know the difference.. But I believe in the Darkside 100% and feel that she will be safer, if not, I'm rich, just paid her life insurance!!!! Justa Jokin, Love her to death, oops
Ride Safe All, Check your pressure, and hit those twisties.. CLIFF

Hey Reap!

I ride my wife on my darkside and don't think a thing about it. A matter of fact, I feel safer with the darkside riding two up. (My wife doesn't want to ride her own....which is OK with me. I like her hugging all over me when we ride.) Plus she likes the way the way the car tire feels. Like buying a new seat! She can ride now and not be sore if we go on a long ride.

We would love to have another woman darksider and I think she will take a 165 VW tire. The 165 even ride more like the motorcycle tire as far it's characteristics and inputs on the bars than a 205.

.............bobby


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Well after reading that post if I had any doughs there all gone now. You've convinced me to go over to the dark side. I was already thinking about it, just could not make up my mind.

Thanks

Hick wrote:Well after reading that post if I had any doughs there all gone now. You've convinced me to go over to the dark side. I was already thinking about it, just could not make up my mind.

Thanks

You are welcome Hick! Glad you came by and looked. If you have any other questions are concerns with your make or model, just ask and we will give you the answer or try to find it for you if we don't know.

..................bobby

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Right now I guess about the only question I have is, what size tire can I put on the 07 Wing? I'll probably come up with a few more as time goes on.
I plan on eating up the tire I have before I make the change, but I'll order the new tire as soon as I decided which one I'm going with. I'm planning on mounting it myself, so I need to order the beads also for balancing also.

Hick wrote:Right now I guess about the only question I have is, what size tire can I put on the 07 Wing? I'll probably come up with a few more as time goes on.
I plan on eating up the tire I have before I make the change, but I'll order the new tire as soon as I decided which one I'm going with. I'm planning on mounting it myself, so I need to order the beads also for balancing also.

My twin brother who has a wing runs a 195/55/16 TR1 Toyo! He loves his and WhiteDevil runs the same tire on his wing!


...................bobby

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Can someone tell me why a CT is so much harder to seat?

dirtwarrior wrote:Can someone tell me why a CT is so much harder to seat?

I will give my opinion by default as I was going to say that the GL1800 wheel has a similar bead locking profile to a car and is a one piece alloy wheel. I think the bead lock on a car has to resist huge sidewall forces unlike a motorcycle tire and as such has to grip very tightly.
My experiences only relate to the GL1800 Goldwing, and so far its all good news. The worry for me is that not everyone can run out and fit a car tire to their ride due to rim styles, beadlock profiles etc. Think about it carefully, investigate the rim style, bead lock, tire sizing compatability etc and take it easy.
I am very lucky in that all the hard work was done by others so making the leap was one of faith as opposed experimentation on my bike.

Trev.

dirtwarrior wrote:Can someone tell me why a CT is so much harder to seat?

I have a different idea! I think the rubber is so much softer the side walls are softer and the tire rolls on the rim instead seating quickly like the motorcycle tire!


........................bobby

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twin1300 wrote:

dirtwarrior wrote:Can someone tell me why a CT is so much harder to seat?

I have a different idea! I think the rubber is so much softer the side walls are softer and the tire rolls on the rim instead seating quickly like the motorcycle tire!


........................bobby

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Not with a run flat.

Trev.

Auswing wrote:

twin1300 wrote:

dirtwarrior wrote:Can someone tell me why a CT is so much harder to seat?

I have a different idea! I think the rubber is so much softer the side walls are softer and the tire rolls on the rim instead seating quickly like the motorcycle tire!


........................bobby

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Not with a run flat.

Trev.

The rubber is softer....I have done the durometer test. The car tire always have softer rubber hands down over the motorcycle tire any day and twice on Sundays!


.......................bobby

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I have around 15000 miles on my CT, I remember back in the late 50's and 60's all we had where CT's for the rear and smaller ones for the front. People these X's weigh 750 plus loaded, my fat a** makes the total weight 1000 lbs ,next time check the load rating for your tires, a 180 is something like 500lbs go two up and most of you guys are not little, you are over gross weight for the tires.The CT I run on the back has a load rating of just a tad over 1300 lbs. Yes the handling is different, but after I (1) found the right air pressure, (2) got the tire sides or out side 3 inches of the tire broke in a little, its heaven!! I've run the Dragon twice with the CT, second time was great, I'ed gotten 3000 miles on it before the second time.
Lets look at the weight of cars, about 3000 to 4000 lbs one wheel at each corner.Hmmmmmm
I picked a nail up in the rear 200 I was running on 75 and MaMa on the back and I almost got it to a complete stop before the tire broke loose on the rim and put us down. I took it into the ditch MaMa okay, put my back out trying to keep it up.('')
zoom forward 2 years almost the same exact thing, this time I pulled over to the side had to fight the bike a little, got stopped, found the nail pulled it out put a plug in it nurse it to the exit and a gas station, air up and complete my ride. My CT has safty type side walls for want of a better word to use for it, and it didn't brake loose from the rim, I bust the corners pretty hard,I play with my son on the back roads( he has a FJR1300) and I can stay pretty close,close enough to push him, but if I want to play Joe Rocket. I'll get a bike more suited for that. On a heavy cruiser, CT YES,
My 2 cents worth from past and present experience.

Doug

yank wrote:I have around 15000 miles on my CT, I remember back in the late 50's and 60's all we had where CT's for the rear and smaller ones for the front. People these X's weigh 750 plus loaded, my fat a** makes the total weight 1000 lbs ,next time check the load rating for your tires, a 180 is something like 500lbs go two up and most of you guys are not little, you are over gross weight for the tires.The CT I run on the back has a load rating of just a tad over 1300 lbs. Yes the handling is different, but after I (1) found the right air pressure, (2) got the tire sides or out side 3 inches of the tire broke in a little, its heaven!! I've run the Dragon twice with the CT, second time was great, I'ed gotten 3000 miles on it before the second time.
Lets look at the weight of cars, about 3000 to 4000 lbs one wheel at each corner.Hmmmmmm
I picked a nail up in the rear 200 I was running on 75 and MaMa on the back and I almost got it to a complete stop before the tire broke loose on the rim and put us down. I took it into the ditch MaMa okay, put my back out trying to keep it up.('')
zoom forward 2 years almost the same exact thing, this time I pulled over to the side had to fight the bike a little, got stopped, found the nail pulled it out put a plug in it nurse it to the exit and a gas station, air up and complete my ride. My CT has safty type side walls for want of a better word to use for it, and it didn't brake loose from the rim, I bust the corners pretty hard,I play with my son on the back roads( he has a FJR1300) and I can stay pretty close,close enough to push him, but if I want to play Joe Rocket. I'll get a bike more suited for that. On a heavy cruiser, CT YES,
My 2 cents worth from past and present experience.

Doug

Thanks and welcome to our site. Jump in the waters warm!


......................bobby

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I have a VTX1300C and my wife rides a VLX600. Can anyone suggest the optimum choices in car tires for our bikes?

--

Bobby,
In your comments on strengths of a ct on a bike (#3), you state the bike is only putting about 1/4 the weight on it. Let's compare that figuring that a loaded bike weighs 1,000 lbs. (and one wheel at 500 lbs.) compared to a smaller car with two people at about 3200 lbs. (and one front wheel at 900 lbs.). The mt is at capacity of 751 @ 42 lbs. My 195 ct is at capacity of 1279 @ 51 lbs. Also, let's use the number of 33 lbs. as the capacity lost per one lb. of reduced pressure in the ct. How does all that shake out?

I run 42 in my mt. and 38.5 in my ct. My calculations would put the mt as running at 67% of available capacity, while the ct is at 51% of available capacity of (an estimated) 980 lbs. (Actually, the auto is probably running at about 100% of its capacity at 35 lbs.) So in fact, the ct on a bike is running at a rate of weight per capacity of about 76% or what the mt is (rather than comparing this rate to a theoretical capacity 1/4, or 25%.) Of course there are other considerations, such as the bike doesn't produce the side shear forces of the car and the ct has more rubber contact on the road and therefore less weight per square inch of contact patch. But I think we are overstating some facts by indicating that there is a lot more capacity on the ct and that plays the biggest reason for improvement in ct tire performance (or longevity). Especially when you consider that the tread rubber is actually softer than the mt. This alone would normally make the wear mileage much shorter under the same circumstances.

I suspect that the better cornering is based on a larger contact patch and the softer rubber compound, just as you would on a dragster or race bike. The longer mileage perhaps based on more contact patch which means less weight per contact square inch. The auto should wear out the tire in a much shorter time (if left on the front) as it's running at capacity.

None of what I've stated is to contradict the actual results of using a ct. It's just that perhaps we need to be sure of what we are attributing the results to.

RonK

RonK wrote:--

Bobby,
In your comments on strengths of a ct on a bike (#3), you state the bike is only putting about 1/4 the weight on it. Let's compare that figuring that a loaded bike weighs 1,000 lbs. (and one wheel at 500 lbs.) compared to a smaller car with two people at about 3200 lbs. (and one front wheel at 900 lbs.). The mt is at capacity of 751 @ 42 lbs. My 195 ct is at capacity of 1279 @ 51 lbs. Also, let's use the number of 33 lbs. as the capacity lost per one lb. of reduced pressure in the ct. How does all that shake out?

I run 42 in my mt. and 38.5 in my ct. My calculations would put the mt as running at 67% of available capacity, while the ct is at 51% of available capacity of (an estimated) 980 lbs. (Actually, the auto is probably running at about 100% of its capacity at 35 lbs.) So in fact, the ct on a bike is running at a rate of weight per capacity of about 76% or what the mt is (rather than comparing this rate to a theoretical capacity 1/4, or 25%.) Of course there are other considerations, such as the bike doesn't produce the side shear forces of the car and the ct has more rubber contact on the road and therefore less weight per square inch of contact patch. But I think we are overstating some facts by indicating that there is a lot more capacity on the ct and that plays the biggest reason for improvement in ct tire performance (or longevity). Especially when you consider that the tread rubber is actually softer than the mt. This alone would normally make the wear mileage much shorter under the same circumstances.

I suspect that the better cornering is based on a larger contact patch and the softer rubber compound, just as you would on a dragster or race bike. The longer mileage perhaps based on more contact patch which means less weight per contact square inch. The auto should wear out the tire in a much shorter time (if left on the front) as it's running at capacity.

None of what I've stated is to contradict the actual results of using a ct. It's just that perhaps we need to be sure of what we are attributing the results to.

RonK

RonK,

I think you are thinking too hard about this! The weight capacity is designed by the manufacture of the car tire for the air pressure required of the tire! You should not reduce the load or capacity by the psi of the car tire compared to a motorcycle tire! It's not apples for apples! Most of the comments are for those just trying to wrap their head around the idea of a car tire and the pro's and con's of the it!

Secondly number 3 item wasn't for the a reason why our tires last longer, it's to show durability against a failure. The reason why they last longer with softer rubber is because the don't slip and slide like the motorcycle tire does which cause excessive wear! The reason why our motorcycle tires wear out is because they do just under normal stopping and starting are slipping all the time! Now combined with the narrow contact patch, it's going to wear because our roads are flat. Something gotta wear....either the roads are going to try to match the tire or the tire will match the road surface. Common sense of two objects wearing on each other, usually one that is the least hardest of two will always 100% of the time wear to the surface of the harder object. So that's why worn motorcycle tires match the surface of the road and our 99% of our riding! Therefore our car tires start with the contour of a worn motorcycle tire and matches 99% of type of riding and gives you greater grip and reduces wear!

I think we are on the money with these statements. Not an over statement at all from my perspective! My car tire will do and has done everything that I have stated here and in fours years, I am on my second car tire and I am a daily rider! Of course we could just chaulk it up to "elfin magic"... That would work for me too!

Thanks for your input! Every one is going to see it from their side of the equation, I just care that it works and to help those understand. I don't think every one will agree on everything, but you are correct when you say nothing you wrote disputes anything I wrote, just another way to look at it! Feel free to add to the data! I don't claim to be a tire expert....I just stayed in a Holiday Inn last nite...!

.........................bobby

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greenhornet wrote:I have a VTX1300C and my wife rides a VLX600. Can anyone suggest the optimum choices in car tires for our bikes?

You have lot's of choices with your 1300. Check out the honda shadow section for the 600. Otis56 has one mounted on his that he's happy with. Federal 165/80r15 if I recall.

Good luck! And post a picture of both bikes side by side from the rear when you get r done.

I like the idea of the CT which makes sense, yet when I see pictures of MCs in curves with the DS there does not appear to be much tread touching the road.

Why not replace both tires and use a narrower CT in front?

How long do you feel uncomfortable/unusual riding the DS?

I only drive 8 - 10,000 miles a year

Dapper wrote:I like the idea of the CT which makes sense, yet when I see pictures of MCs in curves with the DS there does not appear to be much tread touching the road.

Why not replace both tires and use a narrower CT in front?

How long do you feel uncomfortable/unusual riding the DS?

I only drive 8 - 10,000 miles a year

Good questions Dapper!

What you have to understand that though is does decrease in width...it's deceptive because so much is on the ground when riding straight, but the contact patch is a triangle shaped and has twice as much as a motorcycle tire has on the ground. What it looks like doesn't always mean it's so.

Well we don't replace the front tire because they always last a long time and if it's not broke, don't fix it! I could only get 6,000 to 7,000 miles out of a rear...that's broke where I am concerned. Plus the front tires usually lean more and have less of a chicken strip that the rear tires. In other words when I do wear out a front tire...it's usually used up all over and not so with the rear tire. It usually just worn in the middle.

As long as you can take it! I have ridden exclusively for 4 years now on the darkside and will never go back to a motorcycle tire on a cruiser.

This mod may not be for you! If that's all you ride, it may not be a plus for you...but for me! If I rode 10 miles a year or 10,000 miles a year and know what I know now about the car tire and how good it is...I would do it in a heart beat!

Thanks for the questions...I hope this answers some of your thoughts.


.....................bobby

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I have to wonder out loud when I hear of people like yourself that have been using a different style of tire on their bike with no apparent consequence, why this has not been adopted by all cruiser type bikes is my question.

I think most would agree that this type of mod would not be applicable to bikes that would lean further like the sport tour, track bikes or any bike that is meant to or can have you drag the knees.

I have been using Metzler ME880s since getting rid of stock Dunlap and even though I have never gotten a chicken strip I have seen this on other bikes. My last set of Metzler s got me about 12K before I replaced whic is nothing compared to what I have read about the DS.

I am however intrigued by this mod and wish I knew of someone locally in Phoenix that has done this so I could talk to them or possibly follow them into the twisties to see how well the DS mod actually performs.